11. Practitioner's Podcast: 5 Levels of Obedience
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Friends, we're so excited for today's episode. We're gonna talk a little bit about one of my least favorite terms in all of scripture. Obedience . Obedience. Obedience. Because I'm a control freak. I don't like obedience. Justin, tell us who this episode is perfect for. Yeah, I will. Before I do that, I gotta resonate with that, but for a different reason, not cuz I'm a control freak.
I just don't like being told what to do that often. And so somebody's like, obey, you better obey this. it's a little bit hard. And Jesus and I have been working on that for a while, and I'm much better at handling it from him than I used to be, and I'm growing and handling it from others. But this episode is perfect for every disciple who desires to grow in true obedience.
So it's perfect for every disciple who desires to grow in true obedience. And what you'll see is it's perfect for you if you're one of those people, because this tool presents a ladder of obedience that helps enable assessment and vision. That kind of opens up eyes and , opportunity to obey in a way that maybe you didn't realize.
Maybe you can see that, oh, maybe I'm not obeying the way I thought I was. You'll, it'll come clear as we talk about it, but this episode is all about the five levels of obedience tool. Yeah. And what I love about this is, this was originally taken from a blog that you wrote, Justin. , a while ago. And the thing is, is as you picture the levels of obedience, I want you to picture a ladder or steps, and there are five levels and we're gonna talk about each five of them.
Jocelyn, take some, I'll take some. I'm gonna give you a quick overview of the five. So level one, inconsistent obedience, level two, conditional obedience. Level three, provisional obedience. Level four, future happiness, obedience, and level five, the one that we're all trying to get to unconditional obedience.
But just like anything, if we're gonna start, we need to start at the very beginning cuz it's a good place to start. Level one, inconsistent obedience. Right. And, and if there was one phrase that, embodied, inconsistent obedience, the phrase would be what? Younger self used to say all the time, I'll do what I want.
Or I used to say it like this, I'll do what I want , but, but the reality is infant disciples. , make up most of the people that are in this stage, right. Sometimes they're even aware of what God desires, but they don't yet care enough about what God desires to put God's desires above their own right. They may be obey at times, but it's more coincidence rather than commitment.
Some of the phrases that we see in this level is I'm just living into my. Right. This idea that you have a truth is, one of the key things of inconsistent obedience, right? Jesus is the truth, right? That's the only obedience we really have. So, inconsistent obedience is this idea that I'll do what I want, I'll do it when I want, and if it happens to line up with the word of God, great.
, if it doesn't, well I'm still gonna. The other thing that's really noticeable in this level of obedience is if you don't have a scriptural backing for the things that you're doing, it's gonna be really hard for you to be obedient. So, One of the things that, that we talk about a lot in disciple making is when somebody asks a question, you'll respond with, well, where do you see?
And they answer, where do you respond? Where do you see that in scripture? And so, if they don't have an answer for that or it's not in scripture, then you can probably bet that you're maybe living in that level one area. But the good news is you don't have to live there very long. . Yep, that's exactly right.
So there's, there's other levels or other rungs of this ladder that are going to be going up. And as we go up the ladder, we are getting more and more obedient and our relationship with God is gonna be healthier and healthier. So I'm gonna be talking about, , the next couple levels here. what I want us to see, though, before we move forward is that these next few levels, so level two, level three, level, Reflect a transactional relationship with God.
And so it's a bit complicated, right? So it's not that people aren't obeying at these levels, but they're obeying in order to get something. So they're giving a bit in order to get a bit. And so we just need to, to have our, our eyes open as we look at these levels, two, three, and four, that that's what it is.
So level two, the level of conditional obedience, and probably a good phrase to sum up this level. If God gives me what I want, then I will give him what he wants. Okay? If God gives me what I want, then I'll give him what he wants. And so it's better, right? It's better than just saying, I'm gonna do what I want.
disciples at this level relate to God though, like he's their servant, right? And so God is going to give them what they want, and after that, then they will give something to. , you know, maybe a servant, maybe like a pet, right? We do that with pets sometimes. Sure. Like, Hey, come here. If the pet does what you're, what you're asking the pet to do, then he gets a treat, right?
And so with God at this level of obedience, it is conditional. Now, most of the, the people who sit at this level, they're not thinking of. They're not conscious that they're doing that, right? A lot of them would think, oh no, I wouldn't. I would never do that to God. But yet when you look at when they're obeying and when they're not, they're going to be obeying when things in their life are going really well.
They're getting what they want from God, from their relationship with God, et cetera, et cetera. But when things shift, that's when it really becomes clear, oh, you were actually at level two obedience. And that's why when things are going wrong, You're really struggling now with God. Okay, so level two conditional obedience.
If God gives me what I want, then I'll give him what he wants. Okay, and then the next level, next rung up is level three provisional obedience. So level two is conditional, this is provisional. And the phrase for this level, I'll give God what he wants as long as he meets my. I'll give God what he wants as long as he meets my needs.
Now if you're following along, really paying attention here, you might think, Justin, those sound basically the same. The second one, you're, God's gonna give me what I want and then I'm giving him what he wants. But the third one, I'll give God what he wants as long as he meets my needs. So there are two main differences between level two and level three.
the first difference is, , At this stage, right? So in level three, the disciple obeys first and allows God to respond. That's what happens on level three. This the disciple obeys first and then waits on God's response. And level two, it's the opposite. They're waiting for God to respond and get what they want, and then they're gonna respond, then they're gonna obey.
Second, the disciple only demands that their needs be met instead of also their needs. And, . Okay, so level two it was, I'll give him what he wants. So we're on a level of wants. Level three, we've moved from wants and needs to, to needs, right? So again, level three provisional obedience. I'll give God what he wants.
As long as he meets my needs. So I'm going to start with obedience, and if he's meeting my needs, then I'll continue in obedience. But if I feel like my needs are no longer being met, then I will retreat back. I'll step back from my obedience, I'll step back from God. And then really you're another way says you're just stepping down the ladder.
You're saying, okay, well if you're not going to do that for me, I'm going to wait here until you do. And then maybe I'll. Okay, but so, so far we have inconsistent obedience. Level one, I'll do what I want. Level two conditional obedience. If God gives me what I want, then I'll give him what he wants. Level three provisional obedience.
I'll give God what he wants as long as he meets my needs. And that brings us to level four. Now, level four is interesting because at level four what we see, Is a, a pretty big shift in the way that we think about our exchange with God, right? And when I talk about the exchange, what I'm talking about is my obedience in exchange for whatever it is that I want or need.
So level four is surrender is the beginning of surrendering the idea that it is in fact an exchange. Kind of, so let, allow me to elaborate. It's future happiness, obedience. So level four is future happiness, obedience. And the best way to describe that is I'll give God what he wants, believing in faith that at some point I'll get what I need and want.
Let me say that again. I'll give God what he wants, believing in faith that at some point I'll get what I need and want. And basically this idea is that his provision. His provision is not mine too, to give out willy-nilly, right? So it's, I don't get to just decide it's not Burger King at this point. You understand it's not my way right away.
Right? At this point, we really begin to understand I, in our maturity as a disciple, that I can be obedient. I will do what God wants, and God will decide how it's all gonna turn out. except that we believe that there's a delayed gratification, right? Meaning that I'm gonna get what I need and want in heaven, you know, all eternity, that promise that we see, right?
So it's, it's about, hey, I'm being obedient and my needs and wants will get met whenever God decides, but they're still gonna get met, right? So, so we're walking into the relationship with an expectation already in hand. Now this is a significant growth. From levels one, two, and three. But it's not the fullness of where we can go.
There's still more room, and we're gonna talk about that in just a second. So how do you know if you're in this space, right? If you think about your relationship with God, , with an expectation of heaven and it's all gonna be, eventually fine, and I'm doing this because it's all gonna be eventually fine, if you're walking into that relationship with.
Expectation, whether it's spoken or unspoken, you might be at level four and it would be worthwhile to evaluating because there's even more fruit to be had at level five. Yeah, that's, that's really important because level four, a lot of people get to level four and they look around and they think that's the top rung of the ladder.
They think, well, I've made it, because even if they're thinking. Well, God's gonna meet my need. It might not be here on earth, but , eventually my need's gonna be met. That sounds really holy. It sounds sanctified and it's certainly better than the, the previous rungs, but like Tony said, there's more, right?
And so this level five, this top rung of the ladder is unconditional obedience. And the phrase we have with that is, I'll give God what he wants. I'll give God what he wants. Disciples at this level have surrender. Not only their wants to God, but their needs to God. They've internalized the truth that, , Jeremiah 10 23 talks about.
Jeremiah says, I know a Lord that a man's life, a person's life is not his own. It is not for a person to direct their steps. And so they've basically surrendered and said, God, this, this life that I have. Even me, I am yours. Do with me what you will and I will obey you because I know that you are the king and I am.
Now that's, that's relatively easy to say and really hard to live out, right? Because when we are in a place where we feel like our needs are not being met, we want to s to squirm and to remove ourselves from the altar, remove ourselves from that level of submission, and to go and get. What we feel like we must have.
But God does promise to take care of us, promise to provide for us, promises to love us, and so promises not to withhold, , what we need, right? So if you think about the, the passage with the, the snake, right? If a f if a child asks for a snake, what father's gonna give it to him? Not gonna happen. I'm butchering that, but I think you guys remember it.
You were close, pretty close. So Justin translation, , this level, level five's really important. Because that's where we're all trying to get. That's where we're all trying to get, and this whole tool is really important, not only for you as a disciple, but also for disciple makers, so that we can communicate clearly and effectively to those who are discipling about the the type of relationship and the type of obedience that God desires from us.
A lot of people, instead of really surrendering to God, they are just trusting God for things. All right. I'm gonna trust God for, , this healing. I'm gonna trust God for, you know, my needs being met. I'm gonna trust God for a significant other. I'm gonna trust God for, contentment and happiness in my life.
But there's a difference between trusting God for and simply trusting in God. Hmm. And so this obedience piece, this ladder really helps bring that out, for us. . Yeah. And, and there are a couple of kind of nuanced points here, right? that I think are important to hold onto as we think about this ladder.
The first thing is we're really intentional to call this thing a tool, right? When you used at its best, it's an evaluation tool. And for some of us, if you're anything like me, you may have to evaluate yourself on a daily basis, right? So I've realized, and, and you probably have to just by listening, we don't just.
On one level, right? Disciples move back and forth from one level to another, depending on the issue of the day. I, I'll be honest with you guys, if I'm hungry, angry, lonely, tired, I may go all the way back to one. Like it's not uncommon for me. On a good day though, I'm at four or five. Right. But, but again, my emotions can influence my ability to be obedient so much.
Right. Which is why sometimes I think they're from the enemy. it's, it's just important to evaluate where you are, okay? So that evaluation should be done pragmatically and without judgment, because the second thing is, and it's important to remember, That doing the right thing is always, always, always better than doing the wrong thing.
So said another way. Obedience is always better than disobedience, regardless of the motivation. So if, if you're out there doing the right thing because you think it's gonna work for you and heaven, that's better than doing the wrong thing, right? That's better than living a life of sin, right? Turn towards the.
And let the Lord lead you. And, , I believe, you know, in that process of sanctification, you'll begin to see the fullness of life with Christ that comes with unconditional obedience. Yeah, I think that, that's a question I had honestly in college as I was learning about some of this, was, was it better to, if I'm not, if I don't have the right motivation, if I'm just obeying to get God to do something for me, is it even, should I even do it?
and like you just said, Tony, it's always better to obey regardless of the motivation that we have. And obedience is really important, right? It's really important cuz it reflects our heart and it's really important too, because Jesus has an expectation that those who call him Lord will obey. I remember in Luke 6 46 where he says to his disciples, why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I.
the two things don't fit together. If I am Lord, then there should be surrender and obedience that comes with it. And so Jesus, in, in that moment, in that time that he was interacting with his disciples, was frustrated that, that the words were not matching their behavior, that their speech was not matching the way that they were living.
And that's concerning for all of us, just as it was for Jesus. Because if we see people doing that, when we're not doing that, then it, it sheds negative light, not only on us, but also on the gospel and on Jesus. And so that's why this is so important. It's so important because we can grow. There's no reason to stay at a certain level, and so we need to continue to move in obedience towards Jesus.
And the key to that. Is surrender and we can surrender more fully when we see him more clearly. And so if you're struggling, maybe you're listening to this and you're like, oh man, I'm on level two, or I'm on some level and I know I've been there, but I've just had trouble moving forward. The one thing that I would suggest to you is that you spend more time with Jesus.
you spend more time in the word, you spend more time with the word in you through scripture memory and bring that out when, when you're in a place of temptation or that valley of decision of whether you're going to move towards Jesus and obedience or away from Jesus in the thing that you want instead.
But the great thing is the Holy Spirit. He helps us and he is moving us to do the things that God wants us to. All right, friends, let's get to our takeaway and action, Steph, for today. , we hope and pray that this, this short little message was helpful for you. I know it's always convicting to me to talk about obedience and so today's takeaway.
Mature disciples always move towards obedience that's driven by surrender. Mature disciples always move towards obedience that's driven by surrender and the action step. Reflect and identify which level of obedience best describes your walk with Jesus. I recommend writing in, in a journal, dating it so you can come back and revisit it, but reflect and identify which level of obedience.
Best describes your walk with Jesus. Friends, we're always thankful to be on this journey with you. So many of you comment, leave ratings or review on iTunes or Spotify. We're so thankful we read everyone. this wouldn't be fun if it weren't for people like you who take time to listen. So, hey, do us a favor, share this episode with a friend, maybe somebody who can help hold you accountable in obedience.
And until next time, friends will see you guys real soon.