15. Practitioner's Podcast: Two Types of Deception
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Practitioner's podcast where we're applying Jesus style, disciple making to everyday life. This episode in all of our episodes are powered by Navigators, church Ministries. To learn more or to get connected, go to navigators church ministries.org. I'm really excited for today's episode.
It's got some great insights. Deception, theology, good works. It's all involved. Today's episode is perfect for disciples who want to avoid being deceived. So to kick us off, Justin, why don't you jump into the backstory on this episode. Yeah, absolutely. So this episode I'm really excited about as well. It actually started as something different.
So, originally as we were thinking about and developing this episode, it was gonna be titled The Danger of Doctrine. And honestly, I was a little bit, nervous about that, about doctrine, cuz doctrine is one of those things that I think is important, but also I feel a little bit, inadequate in. I've never been to seminary, never.
don't have my MDiv or anything like that. A lot of people do that. Listen to this, I think. But, and so I was like, oh man, this is, stepping into some, some potentially dangerous waters. But as I was thinking about it, as Tony and I were dis discussing the episode in general, we realized that what we wanted to talk about was bigger than doctrine.
And really what we want to talk about today is deception and the two types of deception that disciples need to be aware. And they need to, you know, kind of ensure or take the steps that they need to take or can take so they don't end up in a place where they are deceived. Now let's just take a moment and define what exactly we're talking about when we talk about deception.
Deception is something that by definition we don't know, right? You don't know if you are deceived, cuz if you knew you wouldn't be deceived anymore, right? It's a close cousin to ignorance, but ignorance is something that you know, right? You know that you don't have knowledge about something, you know you're unaware of something.
but with deception, you don't know. And that's what makes it so dangerous. deception can grab hold of you and you don't even realize that it has, and thus you become deceived. Now we're later in the episode, we're gonna talk about how to ensure that we don't become deceived. But I just wanna jump in and talk about the two types of deception.
So I'm gonna introduce the first one and after a bit, Tony, introduce the second one for us. but the first deception is the deception of doctrine. Right. It's the deception is understanding something without doing it. And so, a verse that talks about this is James 1 22. Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves.
Do what it says. And so there we have this picture of I can be listening. I can be, doesn't say reading, but I can be taking in the word in some way. But if I'm not acting on it, it becomes dangerous. It shifts from moving to something that's really helpful to something that could be harmful. And the way that we can protect against that is by doing what it says.
And Jesus kind of, puts his finger on this as well when he talks with the fair, the sad you sees rather, in John 5 39 and 40, and he says to them, you study the scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
And so while the sades. Experts in the law, Jesus is pointing out that they kind of missed the point entirely. And I don't know about you listening to this, but I don't, I don't want to be that guy, right? I don't want to be the person that knows the word doesn't apply it. first Corinthians eight, one through three says that knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.
And goes on to say the man who thinks he knows something does not yet knows. He ought to know, but the man who loves God is known by God. So this idea of doctrine where we're aiming at the head is particularly dangerous if it only stays in the head and doesn't translate into action. And so that's why, you know, initially we were thinking about calling this the, the danger of doctrine because it is dangerous if it's mishandled.
And I think it is important to note when we talk about doctrine, doctrine is important part of disciple making. Right. What we don't want is we don't want people, what doctrine is designed to do is to be a boundary, for what we believe or don't believe. It's helped to give us handles in some cases, right?
Like some of the doctrine of, of, you know, you and I, Justin have often talked about Calvinism versus our Minim, right? The, these kind of, you know, predestination or free will. Those are doctrine things. And in disciple making, they're important things to help the person that you're discipling get their handles around something bigger.
Where I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, what we're saying is what we have to be careful is we don't wanna make doctrine the idol that we follow. Is that what you're saying? Yes, that's exactly right. So, thanks for that clarification. We're, we're not saying that doctrine is unimportant. Right. Our, our caution, and I think the caution of James and the caution, or the thing that Jesus is pointing out in the sad jesuses is that sometimes we can look at doctrine and approach doctrine in a way.
It makes it bigger than what it is, that it becomes the point of our pursuit and our focus, rather than something that helps us to pursue and love God with who we are and what we do. And so I think that the doctrine, as James points out, it becomes dangerous when we're only taking it in and we're nailing down all our specific beliefs about things, some of which the Bible is clear about.
Some of it, the Bible is less clear about. We kind of stack up, you know, beliefs. Well, it seems like it's saying this, and if that's saying that, then this makes sense and this makes sense and we just build this tower of belief that, isn't as secure as maybe we would want it to be because we are looking at things that are less clear in scripture.
Now, don't get me. We should use our brains. We should love Jesus with all of our mind, as well as all of our heart and strength, et cetera, et cetera. But, when we begin to nail things down in such a way that we don't have room to apply it, right, that it's really just. So that we know stuff, then it begins to puff us up as opposed to moving us in love towards one another.
So that's really what I think is the danger or the, the deception of doctrine is, you know, doctrine is important, but it can also shift. And it's not because doctrines, because of what's going on in us, right? Who we are. Right. Yeah. I, I mean, let's not forget doctrine's an inanimate object, right? Yes. So, doctrine by itself is not good or bad, but how we choose to respond to that doctrine is so important, and that, that actually is a, a really good transition to the second part of the deception, right?
So, If the first part of the deception is deception of doctrine, the second part would be the flip side to that, which is the deception of doing right, and that is just this idea of doing without understanding or knowing. Right? In today's world, I most often see this in, newer Christians who just wanna go out and surf, and now there's nothing wrong with serving, right?
Hear me, me when I say that. There's nothing wrong with action. There's nothing wrong. All of the things that people want to do to honor the Lord, that's great, but if we don't know why we're doing it, then a lot of times it can just become another coping skill or another idol for how we feel. Right. And so oftentimes we think about the deception of doing, there's some scripture here that really backs us up.
Matthew 7 22 through 23, talks a bit about this. It says, many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name, drive out demons and in your name, perform many miracles. So again, Matthew giving all of these examples, Then in verse 23, Jesus says, then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you away from me.
You evil doers, right? So in this case, what Jesus is talking about is doing things action without intimacy or relationship. And Tony, that is to me, the scariest verse in all of the Bible. Right. Because it why present it presents this picture of people that really believe they are serving Jesus, right?
They identify him, Lord, Lord, and then they name these things that they've been doing in his name. Hmm. And they're approaching Jesus with that confidence. Hey Jesus. I know your Lord. I've been doing these things, and then he looks at them and says, I never knew you away from me. You evil doers talk about a picture of people who are deceived, right?
Yeah. Because I believe they are totally shocked by that response that he is giving to them. And I believe they, they're the ones right, who have fallen into this deception of doing that. They in some way think that they have earned, That relationship or that favor with Jesus. And Jesus is like, I don't even know.
I don't know you. You know? And the presumption that I'm making, I guess, is that, he's saying, well, yeah, you did all this stuff, but who are, I don't, I don't know, you. Right. And so, yeah, the for me scariest verse in all of scripture, o one of the things I see in both of these deceptions is that it, it just continually goes back to the relationship that we have with Christ, right?
Nothing is more important than that relationship of radically pursuing an intimate relationship with Christ, because the deception of theology is, you know, this pursuit of this grand, grand knowledge where the deception of doing. Is this pursuit of grand action. But the truth is, is what we need is pursuit of Jesus.
Yeah. And I, I think of, a another verse that we were kind of tossing around before we hit record as we were talking about this idea of deception, of doing is. you know, Proverbs 19 two, it says, desire without knowledge is not good. How much more will hasty feet miss the way? Right? And so, you know, as disciples and disciple makers, we live in the tension of both being intentional and relational and so intentional with our head, relational with our heart, and that way that they're both so important.
It's just so important. A and I think that, that we see Jesus do this pretty well. Yeah. And I think. You know, just in, in thinking about these two, one of the reasons that these, that we fall, right as, as disciples, as people who are trying to follow Jesus, we fall into one of these deceptions, or we are prone to do that, is because we wanna move from that relationship to a place of earning.
And so we believe, oh, well, if I just pour myself into knowing the word, that will make God happy. Maybe I'll get some favor from that. Or we do the same thing if we fall into the deception of doing Now, if I just pour myself out and doing as much as I can for God, then it will give something back to me in some way.
And we miss this idea that the relationship that we have with Jesus is by grace and. Even as a disciple. Yeah, I want to know what the word says. I wanna be able to apply it to my life. I want to be doing things in his name and being obedient to the thing he asks. But I also have to remember that even my best knowing and my best doing, before God are like filthy rags, like Paul says.
And so there's this freedom that comes with acknowledging there's nothing I can do to make God love me more, and there's nothing I can do to make him love me less. And I, I don't know where I got that. I've heard that many times in my life. It's not from me. but it does free me and I think it frees us to, to follow him in a way that keeps us, on track with him.
Right? And it protects us a little bit against those, those deceptions. But Jesus handled these things right? He, he warns against these things. We just saw it in Matthew 7 22 and 23. We saw it in John five when he is talking. People studying the scriptures and thinking they're gonna get eternal life out of them.
Tony, how are some other ways, or what else do you see in Jesus that would apply to this conversation that we're having about these two deceptions? Well, I, I think one of the things that Jesus does really well, I mean obviously Jesus does a lot really well, but when it comes to these deceptions, is that Jesus is really quick, to talk to his disciples about these things, right?
And I, I'm often, I, I was thinking about this idea when the disciple said, Jesus, we want to sit on, on your right hand, right, James and John. The, the sons of Zeeb, can we sit next to you? You're right and left side. And Jesus says to them, you don't even know what you're asking. Right? And I think this is the kind of idea that happens.
Like we have this belief, this theological, this docturnal belief that this is the way it is, right? And so because of that, we may be quick to action. We quick may be quick to do something, we want something. Or when the disciples say, Hey, should we call down fire on these people? And Jesus is just like, whoa, whoa, slow down.
That's not how we do things, right? Like, and, and I think. That when we think about disciple making, it's both, important to teach good doctrine and good action, but all of it going together to honor the king Jesus and the very incarnation, right? The very presence of Jesus is both a fulfillment of the doctrine and God in action.
And I think that we see that pretty. Yeah, that's well said. The incarnation where Jesus brings these things together, right? Because he is perfect in his doctrine, but he's also perfect in his doing. And so to look at him as the, the example for us I think is really helpful. let's talk about the solution, right?
So we've kind of hinted around at some things. what we're, what we've said so far is you just can't have one, right? We need both. We need to be committed to our doctrine, but we also need to be committed to our doing. And one Timothy four 16, some Paul's last words to Timothy, address this. And Paul says to Timothy, he says, watch your life and your doctrine closely.
Persevere in them because if you do, you'll save both yourself and your hearers. And so just this idea of watching both your life and your doctrine. You know, some years ago a person that was investing in me, said to me, you know, sometimes we can have all our doctrine in order, but our lives are a mess.
And he said, and what that really means for us is that our doctrine isn't in order. Because Right. Theology leads to Right living. And so that phrase, right, theology leads to Right. Living has stuck with me because, you know, if we have, things in our mind and we think it's really clear, and yet we look at our life.
And we're not doing those things, then our doctrine somewhere is off. Right? And so, that's been a good check for me of like, you know, cuz early in my Christian life I was much more oriented around figuring out doctrine and thinking about it. but my application of that doctrine was lagging way behind.
And we kind of talked about that, Tony, in a previous episode on, on the grace gap illustration. But what do you think of this, this idea and what other solution or, you know, what else do we need to know about marrying these things together so that we don't fall into one of these deception? Well, one of the things that I think is really important is that no matter where you're at in the Christian walk, you need to have people in your life that have permission to speak in.
To what you believe and how you live out the faith. Hmm. Right. And so this idea about intentional community, even as a disciple maker and, and I mean, let's, let's just call it what is right. I, I'm a pastor, a disciple maker. I live in this world pretty regularly and it's, I'm probably most susceptible to, to bad theology and bad living.
When there's, because there's not many people who feel qualified to speak into my life because of a role like that. Mm-hmm. Does it, does that make sense? Right. So if you're listening and you're, yeah, you're a pastor, you're a church leader, maybe you're on nav staff somewhere, and you have done this for a really long time, if there's, do a little check of your circle, who in your life would call you?
If you're preaching wrong theology or living a wrong life. And I think as disciple makers, we always want to be disciple, make we wanna be making disciples, but then we also need to make sure that we're surrounded by other, godly men or women who feel comfortable and we give them permission to call us out if we go astray.
Does that make. Yeah, I love that because that community piece, I mean, it has to be something outside of us if it's gonna keep us from being deceived, right? Because if we're deceived, we're not gonna know it. And so we have to have somebody outside of us or some mechanism outside of us. Us to, to tell us, Hey, you are off here.
You don't think you're off, but you really are. And the scriptures make it clear that, that that's the one of the main things that helps us to stay on the path that Jesus has set out for us. And it's one of our main responsibilities as being a, a church together, right? That we need to be in relationship with one another.
in such a way that we love each other enough to say the hard things, and it's gonna be a hard thing to tell somebody that they're deceived or that they're, they're moving away from what they need to be moving towards. so that is, you know, as much as anything, I think that's probably the biggest thing that we can do because Paul tells Timothy, watch your life and your doctrine closely.
Even as he's saying that to Timothy, he is doing that for Timothy. Yeah, that's right. Right. And so we need to not only heed the words that he's given to Timothy, but also heed the example that Paul has shown to Timothy. Well, I, I know that if you're anything like me, this is an area that is constant place of tension, right?
And so we just wanna encourage you that you're allowed to be in tension about this, and it's probably really healthy if you are. So lemme go ahead and give you our takeaway and action step for today. Our takeaway on their own doctrine and doing are dangerous, right? Healthy disciple making need both doctrine and application to become more like Jesus, right?
So on their own, if you just separate 'em out individually, doctrine can be deceptive and doing can be deceptive. But healthy disciples need both doctrine and application to become more like, And the action step. Well, we've kind of already said it, right? Watch your life and your doctor closely and invite others to keep a watch with you.
Don't be afraid to do a buddy check. Hey, how, how's my doctrine? How's my life? You see, anything I don't see give, give people opportunity for feedback. Friends, we're so thankful to be on this journey with you. We're thankful, that you give us your, attention and time every couple of weeks as we try to put out more and more resources to help you be a Jesus style disciple maker.
So make sure you hit that subscribe button where you ever listen to podcasts and share this episode with a friend, maybe somebody who can help hold you accountable. We'll see you guys real soon.