Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Practitioners podcast where we're applying Jesus style disciple making to everyday life. This episode and all of our episodes are powered by Navigators church ministries. Today is the day. To get connected to them go to navigatorschurchministries.org.
Stop trying to form your discipleship pathway yourself. Phone a friend. Call the navigator's church ministries today. Justin good morning. Good morning.
How's it going? How's it going? Here's a question that I want to wrestle. I want to. I want to get your hot take on.
This is a hot take. This isn't a thought out take. This is a classic tony off the cuff question. You ready? Okay.
All right let's say that you get to heaven and you're going into the pearly gates. But before you take your final step in you're presented with an option. You can a go into heaven and be dwell in the presence of the Lord or you can be leave heaven and go do the nber one thing that you love to do on earth for the rest of eternity. So option a dwell in the presence of the Lord. Option b not dwell in the presence of the Lord but get to do whatever you want your favorite activity for the rest of eternity.
What are you choosing? What are you choosing? Well there's a clear right answer. I know but the thing is right doesn't always make it easy. Right?
Like well first of all that's true. What activity would you choose? What activity would you choose? Oh that's a hard question in and of itself.
I don't. I feel like you know playing baseball might be in there. .
Yeah. What? I don't know. I don't. Oh man this is hard.
Maybe watching like a favorite show but then I get. I'm not into it after a while. Right? So that would wear off hanging out and my wife. Right.
Just spending time with her. Tony what about you? What. What would come to your mind as what you would. I would say that I mean obviously the.
The right answer is to dwell in the presence of the Lord. But if I were to fantasize about what option B would be I think it's those. I would want to continually relive those years where Karen and I are raising kids from like five so out of diapers and potty trained to like eleven when all three of our kids were in that space. Like that's a really sweet. Those were some of my favorite years of like existing as a dad and a husband.
They weren't easy. Right. But I imagine it with option B. They would be a lot easier. Right.
So that's kind of you know. H? Yeah. No that's an interesting. That's an interesting question.
You hadn't asked it to me before but it sets up the episode. Well right. Of you know this episode is really about being a disciple. It's about the difference between loving God as one of the things that we love or loving him as the thing. Right.
That we love. And you know I think that is really important. Right. It's really important to think about is God the one that we love more than any other? Because we know from scripture that it's.
It's what he wants from us. Right. He is a jealous guy. He wants our hearts. And if we are only moving towards him as one of the.
The many things that we find life in or enjoy I would imagine that there's some degree of offense that he would take from that. Yeah. Often. Part of the reason why I brought up the question is because obviously one of the things in our notes is we were prepping for this is how much do you love God that kind of Abraham kind of love where you're willing to sacrifice your son? I.
Every time I read that story I almost get a little weepy because I don't know that I love God that much but I want to love God that much. And then I pray that I would never have to give up what God is asking me to give up so that I can prove that love that much. That story like it messes with me at a deep personal level. Yeah. It can be seen that way.
Right. Because we can prese that Isaac was what Abraham loved the most. Yeah yeah. Right. And then that is the thing that God puts his finger on is like yeah that's what I want you to sacrifice to me.
And you know it wasn't just a nodding of the head that Abraham did of like okay yeah. You know like he went through all those steps and was just right there at the edge of plunging that knife into Isaac. And so he was. He was committed. He was there.
Right. He was going to do it. And for us is that something we're willing to do when we think about you know is there one thing that we love to do more than anything else when we think about our free time when we think about what we're doing would we as a disciple be willing to sacrifice that to God? And it doesn't even mean and I don't want to insinuate that the thing that you love might be a bad thing or a negative thing. Like it could be something that's really good and healthy and you know even commanded in scripture.
Yeah. I think one of the interesting things about this is that it's loosely connected with idols. Right. And it's not necessarily idol worship as much as it is idol love you know and where you give your heart and what does that look like? And you know there are often times where I can do something that's really good and it's good for building the kingdom of God but it's not necessarily focused on Jesus.
Right. We titled this episode a love or the Love. And what I appreciate about that title is that I have a love for the church the local church. We both do. You know we both love the local church.
We're big advocates for it. And when I was serving as a lead pastor I wanted the local church to be wildly successful. And there were even seasons in my life through no one's fault seasons in my life where I gave up my time with the Lord so that I could work on the church. And the truth is that's me giving my heart to all love and not creating space for the love. And so Justin as you think about this how do we begin to parcel out the difference between a good thing that we love and the love that we have for God?
Yeah. I think about Jesus and the invitation that he made to the disciples. Right. We can look at it in Matthew 419. Come follow me Jesus said and I'll make you fishers of men.
Or mark 314 he appointed twelve designated them apostles that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach. And one of the things I always pull out when I teach on Jesus's invitation is that he invited them to relationship first. Right. It wasn't to the task or to the mission first primarily. And firstly it was to relationship with him.
And so I think our love that God desires from us is rooted in that relationship with him. Right? It is. You know are we willing? Not just willing but are we looking forward to?
Are we engaged in and interested in spending time with him and dwelling with him? And I think that is when I think about the love or a love when I think about loving him versus loving doing things for him. We could throw in the Mary and Martha story in there as well. But that's what I see. That's what I think about is this idea of making him the primary object of our affection.
One of the things that's interesting about this whole discussion is the connection to conserism. Right. Because conserism in itself is. Is disordered love. Right.
God is love and we're made in his image. We are what we love. And one of the things that happens in the world is that we become conseristic about the things that we love. Like I love that. I want more of it right?
Like so if one is good two is better. And you know I should probably have a couple spares as well right? So yet Jesus is constantly reminding us in his teachings that we have to conse him that we have to love him. He's the daily bread. You know it's.
He says very clearly he is his flesh. You know we are to conse his flesh and blood right? And kind of die to ourselves and pick up our cross and follow him. And so the part that's really interesting about all of this conversation when it comes to love versus the love is that when we fall into the love what we get is the fruit of the spirit. What we get is a walk with him that is full and his.
You know Jesus says he says my yoke is easy and my burden is light when I'm loving something else that's not Jesus. And a place where Jesus goes I don't have a light burden. I have a heavy burden because now I'm trying to manage all of these things. And so you know I love that idea that you kind of teased out in our notes that conserism you know really is a disordered love and Jesus is the only ordered love. Yeah.
And I like what you said there too Tony about we are what we love right? Makes me think of we are what we eat which is somewhat true but it's even more true that we are what we love. And so if we are going to become what we love we're shaped by what we love then that makes this topic so so important for the life of a disciple. Right? If our.
If our greatest affection is the fandom of a sports team if our greatest affection is you know our family or our work our job you know career whatever it is then that that's going to impact us. But if our greatest affection is Jesus then. Then that's going to help us be shaped by him so that he becomes greater and we become less like the John the Baptist says in John chapter three. And so this idea that all right how do we help help him and help our relationship with him how do we develop that to a point where it is the love and not a love? And even as I ask that question I have to just be honest.
Like there are some days when. When spending time with him for me is just like well you know it's a love right. It's one of the things. And I'm still trying to get there too. But what are the things Tony that come to your mind?
That how do we get there to a place where our relationship with him conses us in terms of that is the love the passion of our life as opposed to just another thing? So one of the things I say oftentimes when I'm working with couples married couples is that people don't fall in and out of love. They fall in and out of commitment. But it's not commitment to monogamy or the marriage. It's commitment to the disciplines of what it takes to be married.
Right. And there are certain disciplines that are required if you want to stay in the relationship and that's true with Christ as well that if we want to stay in that relationship if we want to get to that intimate space then we have to establish what those disciplines are in our lives. Of course we're going to talk about scripture we're going to talk about prayer. We're going to talk about all of those kind of things that we've talked about nerous times before things that we've seen on the wheel you know these kind of. How do we develop this life of obedience?
Right. But these disciplines are important. And one of the things is that you you know I encourage people to like write them down and kind of evaluate what are the disciplines that I want on a daily monthly quarterly semiannually annually basis that keep me in the relationships. You know one of the things I say all the time is that if you're not dedicated to your disciplines you'll be destroyed by your distractions. And it.
It all kind of goes hand in glove. Because if. If you're not clear what disciplines will keep you in the relationship then surely you will fall out of the relationship. And so for me you know that daily time in the word even if it's bad is more important than not being there at all. Like I want to show up for Jesus in the morning first thing.
Because even if it's not like the most holy time I've ever had it's time for me to show up for the relationship. I don't know. What about you Justin? Yeah no I think that's. That's similar for me too.
Right? It is this idea of you know we're being diligent with those disciplines. But I think you know I just. I just hear the other side saying well man if you have to be so disciplined to it do you really love it that much. Right.
And one of the things that the way I respond to that in my life is I have to continually put what's true in front of me. Right. And what's true in front of me is that the flesh will move towards things that are easy. The flesh will move towards things that are comfortable. And spending time with Jesus isn't always easy and comfortable.
In fact it's not as easy as spending time with somebody who's right in front of me that I can see the way that other people can see me. And so I just have to realize that. But I also have to continually put in front of myself the idea and the truth that Jesus loves me more than anyone here. The truth about who Jesus is and what he continues to do in my life and in me is more true than the things that I'm seeing. It's more true than you know maybe the desires that I have inside me to go and do something that's easier.
And so for me I think that helps me engage in those disciplines and it helps me live into a truth that is even deeper than what I might be feeling at the time. And that's not easy. Right. But I think you know again it's it's what you said tony it's this idea of we have to be committed to it because wouldn't it be interesting I don't think we have any theology to stand on. It was interesting question that you started the episode with but wouldn't it be interesting if that was something that happened right.
Is that people get presented with that choice right at the gates of heaven of like hey you can come in. You've received me you've followed me. I know you but I don't want to force you either to be with me for all of eternity. And so if you'd rather you could go do this thing that I know you like doing you know I want to be in a headspace day to day or as much as possible where I am choosing actively spending time with Jesus over those other things. And I think one of the things that we can't take for granted here is that discipline is love.
And so you know Justin you and I between the two of us we have seven kids and there's never going to be a season in our kids life when they live under our roof that there's not going to be discipline. Discipline is how we help keep them in bounds. It's how we train them. It's how we grow them as young christians into mature christians. And that's true for the way that the Lord kind of works with us as well is that discipline is love.
It's one of those things that is part of that process. Now this is really important for us as disciple makers as well because if you're discipling someone and you're not taking the time to talk about their disciplines then what you're saying is I don't care enough to keep you in bounds. And so when we think about helping someone else start casting a vision of disciplines you know it's always going to start the way it starts which is modeling. And then we're going to go to vision casting and then we're going to go to pruning and challenging. And I think modeling and vision casting are pretty pretty easy to understand.
Right. I'm going to show you how I do it so that you can see it from my own life. I'm going to talk about it. Oftentimes when I'm discipling someone I'll say how was your quiet time? Right.
Vision casting is what would it look like to lean into those uncomfortable things? It's most often what I use the wheel for. But Justin how do you get into pruning and challenging somebody on their disciplines?
Yeah I think pruning and challenging. So challenging is if they're they're telling us that they're going to be disciplined to something and they're not the pruning. I'm not sure on the discipline part but if I can see that someone is spending more of their heart towards other things other than God then there will likely be a place in my discipling relationship with them where I can challenge them to prune that thing. And prune it sometimes means cut it out totally. Oftentimes though it just means cut it back to put it more in line with what it ought to be.
And so you know oftentimes I'm trying to do this in my own life when I'm looking at where is my heart moving when I have some free time right? Is it moving towards things of ease and comfort when I haven't spent that time with Jesus yet? And if it is those are things that I need to be aware of maybe I need to trim that back in my life. Maybe I need to spend less time you know doing those things whether it's reading whether it's sports whether it's exercise whether it's watching a show or a movie. Right.
I have to prune those things back so that my heart isn't as tied to them as it currently is because I want my heart to be more tied to the master than to the things. Tony I think this is super important. I love the conversation we've just had around it. Can you kind of wrap us up with the action step and the takeaway? Yeah.
The takeaway for today is disciples cultivate their lives to grow the love that they have for the master. Right. This is that question. A love or the love? So disciples cultivate their lives to grow the love for they have for the master.
The action step. It's one of our favorite action steps. It's a self assessment. Right. Self assessment.
And then we want to add ask at least one other about what they see in your loves and interests. In other words lean in get uncomfortable and ask your friends how am I loving the Lord? Friends that's our episode for today. As always we're forever thankful for this opportunity to grow with you and to continue to lean into what it means to be disciple makers Jesus style. Disciple makers specifically.
If you have any questions for us we're embarrassingly easy to find. All the links are in the show notes every single week. And we thank you guys so much and we look forward to connecting soon.