21. The Disciple Making Difference Illustration
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Practitioners podcast where we're applying Jesus style, disciple making to everyday life. This episode in all of our episodes are powered by Navigators, church Ministries, which helps churches live out the great commission every single day. For more information or to get connected, go to navigator church ministries.org.
And I would be remiss if on the last episode of the season, I did not give a special thank you to the incredible partner that we have in Navigators Church Ministries. Honestly, it's such a joy to work with Dane and the crew over there. They do. They're so supportive of the mission that Justin and I are on to help spread the word about what disciple making looks like in the world.
So Justin, last episode of season three. How you feeling, bro? Yeah, this is great. I feel like it's been a really good season, right? I've enjoyed it. And hopefully our listeners have enjoyed it, right? And I think this is the first time, Tony, that we've finished a season and already have vision for next season, right?
Every other season we've kind of been like, well, you know, we'll see if, if God is leading us to continue, if there's, if there's more to say that we feel like is critical to be communicated around disciple making because we don't want to just talk. And have podcast episode just because we've been doing that.
We want to make sure that what we're doing is bringing value to those who are listening. And, , what we're hearing is that is true. And we also feel, , really strongly that there's more that we need to be talking about and focusing on as we move forward into season four, , which will happen in the fall.
So. Kind of a new space, new feeling at the end of a season to, to kind of have those, , those understandings or, or those thoughts. Right. So I think that's fun. Yeah, I would say that this has been a year of growth for us as a podcast. Right. So I would say, first of all, we've experienced more downloads this year than any year before.
And so, so thankful for, for you guys and your willingness to listen and share and how God is using it in your lives. And every time that you share that with Justin and I, we talk about it together and we just give thanks that God would use this platform in such a way. We're just getting ready to eclipse 30, 000 downloads.
By the time this airs, I'm sure we'll be way past it. And I'm just really thankful for the community of disciple makers, , that we're building, albeit virtually. It's a community. Nonetheless. I'll also say this year, one of my favorite things that we did was we really, , differentiated the episodes between tools and just kind of vision or content.
And so I thought that the tool based episodes, , honestly, you and I both have enough tools that we could go on with those episodes for a couple more seasons. So I thought that was a, a really smart idea on your part, Justin. Well, thank you. Yeah. I enjoyed those as well. I think. Yeah, the tools episodes.
And then the other, , bulk of episodes we did was like distinguishing, right? Bringing some clarity to words that are commonly used in proximity with disciple making. And oftentimes they're used interchangeably, even though they're not the same. And so all those difference episodes, , I really enjoyed doing those as well.
So it'll be fun to see exactly what next season brings. I know we will have, you know, like I said, some more. Like you said, actually more illustration episodes where we're unpacking some things, but there's some other stuff too that, that I'm really excited to get into. So , all right, that's a lot of recap.
We got something important to talk about today though, Tony, and our episode today is perfect for anyone who is unsure about the impact of disciple making. And this is another one of those illustration episodes. So, as you know, if you've been tracking along with us this season, that , when we do an illustration episode, you want to go into the show notes and you want to open up or download or access that illustration so that you can look at it and see what we're talking about, , while we're talking about it.
It's really going to help you with understanding and giving you context into what we're saying. Yeah. And, , we, we really believe that these illustrations are useful, , not only for our own understanding, but as we're walking alongside someone. who is becoming a disciple maker. So when I'm discipling someone, I use the illustrations both so that I can keep perspective and so that my, the person I'm discipling can keep perspective on the bigger picture of what we're doing.
So today's illustration is, , really easy to picture because I want you to picture the, the globe, the world. And then I want you to picture a funnel and that funnel. , there's two versions of the funnel. The world stays the same in both pictures, but in the first version of the funnel, it looks like a traditional funnel.
So the wide part of the mouth is up. The small part of the mouth is down. The world is underneath the funnel. The other illustration, right? We'll call this. Jesus style illustration is the funnel is inversed, right? So the small part of the mouth is up and the large part of the mouth is down. Now, Justin, why don't you tell us a little bit about the difference between illustration a kind of what we'll call the, , current disciple making model for a lot of churches and disciple B.
, Jesus style disciple making. Yeah. So the modern day discipleship funnel, , looks like most funnels that you're familiar with, right? It's the, the big ones up, the small ones down the world's underneath it, just like Tony said, but what's common and it's common not only for churches, but also in businesses is the.
It starts with the crowds, right? And if you want to refer back, we talked a little bit about these concepts in different ways when we talked about the serving training illustration a few episodes ago. So, , but it starts with the masses and the crowds and the, the goal for a business or church is to get a lot of people in.
And then from that, lots of people try to get. Some of them or as many as will to connect into a small group or a life group or to start serving and then whichever one of those is second, then you're doing that next and each time you're trying to get them to do something else, the size of the or the amount of people who are doing it is getting less.
Right. And so a lot of times, businesses or churches will have these funnels sitting on their side on a piece of paper, right? So for 2D, it'll be on its side and the big ends on the left, small ends on the right. And as they move through, and what happens is, at the end of the funnel, or when you get people down to personal disciple making or you know buying the whole enchiladas they might say in business , then there's only a few it's a trickle, right?
You had a huge stream of people at the at the front at the top and yet by the time you get to the bottom There's little drops coming out because people have opted out. They've said ah, that's not for me I don't want to pay at that level or I don't want to be involved at that level and so they kind of opt out And most businesses and churches just look at that as, well, that's just the way the world is.
And so, we don't know any other way to do it. And we just hope that the trickle coming out the bottom is enough to sustain what we need it to be to sustain it. Right? So, sustaining in business means that we get enough income in, that our profit margins are enough to support our expenses. And if it is, then we can accept all that.
Now the problem though comes with, with churches. It's a little bit different, , in terms of how we might look at that or process it, but that's kind of the picture that we're looking at. And that's how most people, most churches and businesses respond to this first type of funnel. Yeah. And, and one of the parts for me about the modern day discipleship funnel, right, which would be the traditional looking funnel is that it.
It keeps the people entering the funnel as the conser, right? And so it allows most people who enter the funnel to just live there and stay there. And so you're literally losing capacity to send people out. So, you know. Another way to think about this is that this is the low barrier of entry version of Christianity.
This is oftentimes I would say that this is church attenders and not always necessarily Jesus followers Right when we think about what's happened in the local church, and you've heard me talk about this before It's kind of a passion point for me is that over the last 20 years We created church attenders and we did that because that's what we led with That's what we rewarded and what gets rewarded gets repeated.
And so when you teach people how to come to church and that's all you really teach them, then that's all you really get. So the impact on the world outside of the church, the globe, right? Matthew 28, the impact on the rest of the world gets much harder. So I, I, I really struggle with this version of modern day discipleship because what we're really.
Training people to do is to be a church attender. Yeah, that's exactly right. And the conserism angle to that is people are deciding for themselves what fits them, right? We did a series on conserism and its impact on the church and discipleship last season, season two, go check it out if you haven't.
But what it does is when it gets us into that place. of being a conser, then we're not surrendering to Jesus and what he wants from us. We are essentially telling Jesus what we're willing to give him, right? And so when you think about your allegiance, right, your surrender, what Jesus calls us to is something different than opting into his mission, , only to the, to the degree that you want to, or don't want to, or only to the point that it feels comfortable in your life, or it doesn't.
You know, when Jesus calls people to come to Him, He calls them to come and die, to give up everything, right, and to serve. And those are the people, really, who are then going out and making disciple makers, right? The twelve. The others, the 70, et cetera, they're the ones that came and said, yeah, I'm going to lay down everything I have to follow you.
And so, , like you said, it is, it's difficult for us to look at and think about, because for me, it's like, well, not only are we allowing people to think that conseristic choices are okay in their pursuit of Jesus and following him. But we're also saying as leaders. We are okay with whatever choice you make, but those of you that make the choice to, to really follow, we will really disciple you and help you right now.
There's, there's alternatives here and there's a tension. And, and I think one of the reasons, Tony, this illustration is so powerful and there's so much to unpack and we could talk about with it is because, , it's hard for church leaders, whether you're a vocational staff or whether you're an everyday disciple maker in the church.
It's hard to work through this tension, right? Because we can't choose four people and nobody chose for us when we chose to surrender our lives to Christ. But at the same time, there is a responsibility on us as disciple makers to care for individuals. And not just look at the, the people at the top of the funnel that don't make it down to the bottom as just kind of collateral damage, if you will.
I also want to talk about the tension, , that is in the North American church structure, , because the, the reality is, is people, , support the infrastructure and the infrastructure supports the vocational minister. Now, , there's nothing wrong. I don't have anything against vocational ministry. I'm in it myself.
You know, Justin's in it himself, right? And so, like, we do ministry as a part of our career. It's what we're called to, clearly. The scary part of the way that the institution has set up the, the modern day discipleship method is that, , many attenders pay the bills. And that, that's kind of the belief, Hey, big churches, , create big buildings and that's how we pay for big things.
And, you know, if we want to do that crazy big thing that'll, that'll help us spread the gospel. And, and I, I know a lot of pastors who live in this tension and their hearts are pure. They're not, they're not out there trying to. To just bless themselves. They're really trying to do the work of the gospel, right?
And so that tension is so real because our buildings and our staff are all built on the attender model and the people who come pay to be there. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It makes it complicated, right? Because we have all those overlaps going on. Okay, Tony, let's, let's move over to the other side of this illustration with the Jesus style disciple making strategy.
Alright, so, for those of you who are driving, I'll describe it to you. So, it's an upside down funnel with small parts at the top. And then it says 500 as you move down to the bottom and at the bottom, there's, there's lots of water gushing out onto the world at the top, there's one big drop going into it.
Tony, what are your observations? Walk us through that side. Yeah. So in this particular model, the barrier to entry is much higher, right? We show in the illustration, one drop of water going into the very small part of the funnel. And that's the way that most disciple making happens. When Jesus began his ministry, Matthew 4, 19, he says, come follow me.
He called the individual, he called them one at a time. He called them very intentionally, very relationally, very missionally, sacrificially. And taught him how to reproduce and do the same. And, and that's what we see here, right? When you enter into the bottom of the funnel, you're going to enter in small, you're going to learn skills.
And as you learn skills, more people will come in the funnel and those will grow. And as you bring people in the funnel yourself, it'll continue to grow and grow and grow until we fully live out the Great Commission, Matthew 28, where we go, therefore. to all the nations all over the world and share the gospel.
What I like about this illustration is that it reminds us that one drop, if taught how to make disciples, can become a tidal wave, right? One drop, if taught how to make disciples, can become a tidal wave, and that tidal wave can have huge impact, right? And one day, I really believe that we will be in heaven, and the Lord will show us The spiritual legacy that happened one disciple at a time.
And man, if that fires me up more than anything else. Yeah, for sure. Because when it starts with one, it can go big, right? So that's another, , kind of take on this. Or the way that I think about it is that if we go small, if we focus small, Then it helps us go big and impact big. But what the other funnel shows us is that, if we go big from the start, it doesn't help you necessarily get small, right?
Because there's a lot of, , churches that have funnels and they never get to, , disciple making. Personal disciple making. One on one, one on two, one on three. They don't get there. But, and they also don't get to the loss because they're dealing with the crowds and they're just trying to get to that. Few that they can get into.
So, on the right side, the side that we're talking about, the disciple making funnel, Jesus style disciple making, it emphasizes and puts in place a vision for multiplication. Yeah, I'm starting with a few. Maybe it's one, maybe it's two, maybe it's three, but when I look at those individuals, when I work with them, I see the masses.
I see the world. I see the nations in their eyes. Because they're part of God's plan to reach the nations. And so for each person that I'm helping, I am lifting up who God has created them to be, and what God has asked them to participate in, as far as building His kingdom. And so, if... If I'm doing what I should be doing and modeling and teaching well, and depending on the Holy Spirit and moving forward with them, and they're being responsive by responding to me and the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Word of God in their life, then they are going to go out and do it.
And so we multiply much more quickly, , because we're starting with the vision in mind from the very beginning. Right? And so for me, that's all the difference. Now, I will say this, Tony, about our illustration that, , One, it's not original to us, but two, Literalists really dislike it. I've had people say, well, I get what you're saying, but this doesn't make sense because when you put one drop in the top of a funnel, there's no way for it to multiply into a big gush of water.
Well, that's true. That's right. Metaphor breaks down there. But I think more than anything, what we hope this illustration does for you is the same thing that it does for us. It fires us up to go out and get one to make one, right? Like, that's what this is all about. That's what this Jesus style disciple making is at its core.
It's, you know, it's spirit led. It's intentional, relational, reproducible and missional. Yeah, and I think one more thing we need to say is that at the end of the funnel, it's the world, right? That's, that's where the water is headed. And so in disciple making, we have to keep that clear. Right? Disciple making is meant to reach the nations for Christ.
Now, we do that by reaching individuals and getting them Equipped in their heart and their vision skills so that they can go effectively reach people around the world But we can't be satisfied We cannot be satisfied with just making other disciples who are in the church and who are then gonna go make other disciples who?
Are in the church, right? We have to get out To people that don't know Jesus, people that aren't in the church, people that, you know, sometimes live their whole lives and never encounter a Christian, never hear the name of Jesus. So the takeaway, if you want to reach the world, reach your neighbor. If you want to reach the world, reach your neighbor, the action step.
Friends, who is the one person you can add to your funnel this smer, right? Who's the one person that you can add to your funnel one person at a time, one neighbor at a time. We're so thankful for each and every one of you. We're thankful for the connection. We're thankful for all the ways that God continues to work on this platform.
Over the smer, we're going to be dropping some special bonus episodes from Justin and I on other podcasts. So we've got five of them. , maybe a couple more. We'll see what the Lord does. There's going to be so many options, , to continue to lean in. So don't forget that this podcast is designed to be a tool in your toolbox.
So if you're discipling someone and you're talking about how to start, how to end, if you're talking about all the different parts of disciple making relationship. Don't be afraid to search pod bean. Find the episode that helps you the most and use it. Please use it. That's the best gift that you can give us.
That's why we're doing all of it to help make disciple makers on behalf of Justin. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And we can't wait to connect with you guys next year as we start season four.